Thanks for giving me not only research but a reminder that overall what we are called to do, how to disagree and not demonize, and to sit on the other side of my view alongside my brother and sister to see it from their perspective. Not looking to be a right or wrong but rather a humble position of saying let me sit and hear to understand chiefly not respond only.
I firmly agree with your personal position. I like to succinctly describe it as “equality in value, uniqueness in purpose.”
And even in the context of ministerial application, humility, upon which you’ve built your argument, is where it all starts. We who aspire to ministry must ask ourselves: did I mishear God, or did I misapply it?
Thank you, Joel!! My heart is weepy and deeply grateful reading your words on Humble Theology. They articulate clearly something that I have been feeling and longing for as I wrestle through issues like this that good friends of mine land on both sides of. To me, Humble Theology sounds a lot like the way Jesus would want us to engage as his disciples. Grace and Peace 🙏🏼
I very much appreciate your approach here, Joel. You've done a good job of pointing to the fact that the differences between complementarians and egalitarians is not one of obedience and disobedience, but of differing interpretations of the same passages of Scripture. Well done!
This feels very reminiscent of Gerry Breshears position which is the one I have found most compelling from scripture. He says women can: preach, teach, prophesy just not be an elder.
Yeah, agreed! Gerry is one of my seminary professors right now and I love talking about this topic with him. One thing I’d love more clarity on from you, Joel, is whether you see a distinction between the role of pastor and elder. If you hold to male eldership, does that also mean women shouldn’t pastor? I think I understand your view pretty well, but just want to be sure I’m hearing you right.
As you know, the Greek “poimen” to shepherd is what we would translate as pastor. This is a function, not an office. The confusion takes place when we use pastor synonymous w Elder/presbyter and minister/deacon. I hold to male eldership and women serving in every other area. How you use the English word “pastor” probably depends on how you are handling the terms deacon/presbyter.
Love that Joel. That's exactly where I've landed as well. It makes conversations with people who use the terms elder and pastor synonymously more difficult because there isn't a shared understanding on the function vs office, but this is encouraging. Thank you!
I wonder what you would think about John Dickson's short book on hearing women preach. He's also a complimentarian but thinks we've misunderstood Paul's idea of what teaching is.
The basic premise is that we don't teach with apostolic authority. Even when Phoebe went and taught Romans in Rome, she didn't do it on her authority. Now that Scripture is written down, we don't preach and teach with apostolic authority, as our authority comes from Scripture. Seeing how we don't teach like Paul did, but from Scripture, we all can preach regardless of our private parts!! It was pretty short, but my Greek isn't good enough to follow John's argument fully. I'm a very new beginner in that area!
I absolutely LOVE that you always give both views and ask readers to decide for themselves. I, myself, am egalitarian and a staff pastor at our church. I oversee our women’s ministry. This is a topic I feel that I face constantly. Thank you for writing from this viewpoint!
I noticed that you didn’t list A New Testament by Hal Taussig with forward by John Dominic Crossan, who in John’s forward suggested that we have in I Tim. 2:12 an example of the diversity of the early church?
Thank you for the calm and inviting talk on the topic. And/both is such a hard concept for our formula loving culture.
I find it interesting (and funny) that the people who say they take scripture literally don’t like it when I say that this scripture was literally written to Timothy and not to us. They want to literally apply everything to everyone except, of course, the parts they don’t like. 😅
Appreciate your perspective. Have you engaged anywhere with the issue of complementarianism being linked to (or being a trajectory to) domestic abuse? That seems to be a tipping point for many, and I’d love to see complementarians tackle the stats thoroughly. 🙏
Thanks for the informative article. I too struggle with this issue and have had great female pastors in the past. But I also cannot deny what Paul appears to be writing. I don’t have an answer yet as I continue to ponder this particular issue.
Thanks for giving me not only research but a reminder that overall what we are called to do, how to disagree and not demonize, and to sit on the other side of my view alongside my brother and sister to see it from their perspective. Not looking to be a right or wrong but rather a humble position of saying let me sit and hear to understand chiefly not respond only.
I firmly agree with your personal position. I like to succinctly describe it as “equality in value, uniqueness in purpose.”
And even in the context of ministerial application, humility, upon which you’ve built your argument, is where it all starts. We who aspire to ministry must ask ourselves: did I mishear God, or did I misapply it?
Great work, friend. I love your writing.
Thank you, Jacob! 👊🏽
Thank you, Joel!! My heart is weepy and deeply grateful reading your words on Humble Theology. They articulate clearly something that I have been feeling and longing for as I wrestle through issues like this that good friends of mine land on both sides of. To me, Humble Theology sounds a lot like the way Jesus would want us to engage as his disciples. Grace and Peace 🙏🏼
I very much appreciate your approach here, Joel. You've done a good job of pointing to the fact that the differences between complementarians and egalitarians is not one of obedience and disobedience, but of differing interpretations of the same passages of Scripture. Well done!
This feels very reminiscent of Gerry Breshears position which is the one I have found most compelling from scripture. He says women can: preach, teach, prophesy just not be an elder.
Thanks Joel!
I’m a BIG fan of Gerry Bershears! I think we line up pretty well on this one.
Yeah, agreed! Gerry is one of my seminary professors right now and I love talking about this topic with him. One thing I’d love more clarity on from you, Joel, is whether you see a distinction between the role of pastor and elder. If you hold to male eldership, does that also mean women shouldn’t pastor? I think I understand your view pretty well, but just want to be sure I’m hearing you right.
Thanks for all you do.
As you know, the Greek “poimen” to shepherd is what we would translate as pastor. This is a function, not an office. The confusion takes place when we use pastor synonymous w Elder/presbyter and minister/deacon. I hold to male eldership and women serving in every other area. How you use the English word “pastor” probably depends on how you are handling the terms deacon/presbyter.
Love that Joel. That's exactly where I've landed as well. It makes conversations with people who use the terms elder and pastor synonymously more difficult because there isn't a shared understanding on the function vs office, but this is encouraging. Thank you!
I wonder what you would think about John Dickson's short book on hearing women preach. He's also a complimentarian but thinks we've misunderstood Paul's idea of what teaching is.
https://a.co/d/4wu7BGB
I need to read this! Thanks!
The basic premise is that we don't teach with apostolic authority. Even when Phoebe went and taught Romans in Rome, she didn't do it on her authority. Now that Scripture is written down, we don't preach and teach with apostolic authority, as our authority comes from Scripture. Seeing how we don't teach like Paul did, but from Scripture, we all can preach regardless of our private parts!! It was pretty short, but my Greek isn't good enough to follow John's argument fully. I'm a very new beginner in that area!
Another book you may be interested in is "what Paul Really Said About Women" by John Temple Bristow.
I appreciate your approach.
Thank you! I’ve heard about this. I added it to my list!
I absolutely LOVE that you always give both views and ask readers to decide for themselves. I, myself, am egalitarian and a staff pastor at our church. I oversee our women’s ministry. This is a topic I feel that I face constantly. Thank you for writing from this viewpoint!
I noticed that you didn’t list A New Testament by Hal Taussig with forward by John Dominic Crossan, who in John’s forward suggested that we have in I Tim. 2:12 an example of the diversity of the early church?
Thank you for the calm and inviting talk on the topic. And/both is such a hard concept for our formula loving culture.
I find it interesting (and funny) that the people who say they take scripture literally don’t like it when I say that this scripture was literally written to Timothy and not to us. They want to literally apply everything to everyone except, of course, the parts they don’t like. 😅
Appreciate your perspective. Have you engaged anywhere with the issue of complementarianism being linked to (or being a trajectory to) domestic abuse? That seems to be a tipping point for many, and I’d love to see complementarians tackle the stats thoroughly. 🙏
Thanks for the informative article. I too struggle with this issue and have had great female pastors in the past. But I also cannot deny what Paul appears to be writing. I don’t have an answer yet as I continue to ponder this particular issue.